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Talkabout Tuesday 15: Learning Disorders and Peter Gray

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Summary

Peter Gray's "Freedom to Learn" blog on dyslexia: defined as normal IQ but bottom 7% reading - brain scans show nothing different. Hypothesis: people learn to read at different times (4 to 13). Reading wasn't evolutionarily urgent. Labels become identity. Tennessee pre-K study: intensive academic pre-K kids 46% more likely diagnosed with learning disorder, 43% less likely gifted by 3rd grade. Forcing young kids stunts development vs allowing play.

Transcript

0:00 Welcome to "In the Air, Talk About Tuesday" where I talk about something related to Sudbury
0:06 schooling.
0:07 So today I was inspired by a couple of postings from Peter Gray.
0:15 He has a blog on psychology today called "Freedom to Learn" and I definitely recommend reading
0:24 them but in particular, the latest two entries are related to learning disorders, anxiety
0:34 and you know, forced schooling.
0:39 So you know, his first article that I read you know, mentions an actual definition say
0:51 of dyslexia and I don't know, I mean I think it sounded like it was a standard kind of
0:56 definition.
0:57 I'd never heard of it like this before but it surprised me in that what it is defined
1:03 to mean is that it's a person who scores in some normal range for IQ or even better but
1:18 scores in the bottom 7th percentile for reading.
1:22 That's the definition of that.
1:26 So you know, when they've tried to find things that are different in their brains with brain
1:36 scans or anything, they find nothing.
1:40 Now it could be a number of different things going on biologically that you know, all present
1:47 the same symptoms and so you can't get any kind of agreement as to this or that but so
1:56 far there doesn't seem to be a great understanding as presented by Peter Gray.
2:04 His hypothesis is simply that as we are familiar with here at Sudbury School, you know, people
2:14 learn to read at different times.
2:17 They can be perfectly intelligent and just simply not have the pathway to reading at
2:25 the same time as somebody else.
2:27 Why should there be?
2:29 Reading is you know, it's definitely not something that we evolved with.
2:37 We created it long after our primary evolutions unlike walking and probably talking.
2:46 I imagine we've talked for a long time.
2:48 Obviously we don't really know that because you know, before writing there was no recording
2:56 of writing but I would imagine that there is you know, we talked for a long long time
3:05 before we learned to read and the ability to make sound is of course quite natural.
3:11 So you know, it's something that our brains can do but it wasn't an urgent priority to
3:21 get the brain to be able to do it early on, right?
3:24 Being able to communicate with someone else, being able to understand them, that was the
3:29 key.
3:30 Reading is very much a secondary kind of feature.
3:34 Now in that kind of general widespread sort of bell curve on reading, natural reading
3:42 times, you're going to have some people who in the context of conventional schooling,
3:52 you know, they will really really struggle.
3:54 And there's no real reason for them to struggle, it's just they're being asked to do something
3:57 before they're ready.
3:59 And we see that here all the time, students, some of them learn how to read at 4, some
4:07 at 11, 12, even 13 we've heard of, I don't think we've seen that here but I don't know.
4:14 You know, and a lot of times it's just kind of this mysterious thing, just like when students
4:20 learn to walk or talk, I mean there weren't students here at that time of course, but
4:26 you know when they were 1 or 2 years old, they figured out how to do it.
4:31 And the same thing with reading.
4:33 Now sometimes people do need help, I mean I'm sure everyone has asked for help with
4:40 some kind of reading here or there, but for them, you know, I don't know how many actually
4:49 required dedicated instructions as you might see in conventional schooling, I don't think
4:56 I've actually heard of that but I'm not sure that people would tell us about it.
5:02 Nor would it be clear whether or not they would have gained it on their own without
5:07 that instruction.
5:08 So, it's a little hard to know, it's just kind of like, what do you think?
5:13 But in any event, the point here is that, imagine yourself being a student in a conventional
5:24 school who is being told they are bad at reading, or they experience that they're bad at reading,
5:31 I mean, it's not being told.
5:33 And then they're labeled with something, say dyslexia, like ah, okay, so I have an actual
5:40 physical problem or something that is preventing me from reading well.
5:48 And you know, just really imagine, maybe somebody listening to this has experienced it, certainly
5:56 I can bet you if anyone's listening to this and has been through conventional school,
6:01 they've experienced it with regards to math, but you know, it's sort of like saying, okay,
6:07 this is now my identity, this will be what's true about me, right?
6:13 And so, you know, it can be very damaging.
6:18 So regardless of the level of instruction or whatever else, just the idea that there's
6:25 going to be some people, and there will be some people who score that way.
6:30 And in fact, by the definition of, you know, being the low seventh percentile of normal
6:36 intelligence people, well, I guess low seventh percentile reading, and you're in the normal
6:43 range of intelligence, you know, very likely there will be some people by that definition.
6:53 It's just the way the numbers work out.
6:56 So yeah, it's, and yeah, anyway.
7:04 So yeah, now, when I was reading Peter Gray's posts, he actually talked about this study,
7:13 the Tennessee pre-garden, pre-kindergarten study, looks like it was 2018, it was published.
7:20 Lipsie is a name written on it.
7:24 And essentially, this was a study where there was a statewide program to help low income
7:31 families, you know, have children in pre-k programs, and it was an intensive academic
7:37 kind of pre-k.
7:41 And essentially, there were way more people who applied for it than there were spots for.
7:46 So they randomly selected from that pool of applicants, so no filtering there.
7:54 And then they tracked what happened.
7:57 I guess it's not clear necessarily what happened to the people who were not admitted, but I
8:04 think the idea was that they stayed home.
8:09 And so essentially, what they found was that at the beginning of kindergarten, the ones
8:16 who went through this pre-k academic stuff, it started to do better.
8:21 But surprisingly, that didn't last, or maybe not surprisingly, I suppose I'm not terribly
8:26 surprised.
8:28 But you know, there's that kind of like early advantage, and apparently it didn't last.
8:33 What they found was by third grade, those in the pre-k program were 46% more likely
8:39 to have been diagnosed with a specific learning disorder than the controls, and they were
8:43 43% less likely to have been diagnosed as intellectually gifted.
8:48 That's a pretty darn, not good.
8:53 He doesn't list the raw numbers of this, so for all I know we're talking like three kids
9:00 or something, one category or another, but I imagine it's higher.
9:05 I haven't looked at the paper yet.
9:08 But assuming that it's robust, and he does say it was statistically significant, which
9:13 suggests that there was sufficient numbers of students involved in this, but what that
9:24 would be saying is that this program was responsible for those changes, because it was randomly
9:28 selected from this group, right?
9:30 So that's the only thing that should really affect it.
9:36 And I mean, obviously, there could be something that happened on the other side who didn't
9:42 get into the program, but for the most part, it would be reasonable to assume that by forcing
9:51 young kids to sit and listen to these people and master these kind of skills, if you will,
10:02 that they stunted the intellectual development of those kids, instead of being allowed to
10:09 do what we see here, essentially being allowed to play and explore and learn and grow their
10:19 brains in that way.
10:20 So that is a short summary of those two pieces.
10:25 I recommend reading them, and I will try to post links to them.
10:30 And I may have more to say, because I think it's absolutely fascinating.
10:33 All right, well, I will see you when I see you, and I need to figure out how to turn
10:38 this off.
10:39 button.